Ist it a Bug? Midi Bug Report

Sunlite Suite 2 is a complete re-design of Suite 1. Please discus any issues here

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Tschosef
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Ist it a Bug? Midi Bug Report

Post by Tschosef »

Hello Sunlite Suite Team

i think i found a bug.

Software: Sunlite Suite 2, Version Beta, 29.11.2011

please Do this:
Create a console by console editor, and ad some simple buttons.
Assign the buttons to a real midi device wich also have a control LED for each button. it should send ControlChange or Midi Note OnOf...

now assign a Makro to a button
now click Menu Console
Rightclick on the button, and set the settings:
Command: Button Activation (Site: Master...Button: your macro)
Double click on the command and set:
Trigger Level
In active level "On/Off"
outside active level "nothing"
ok....
Also change the Console Setup:
Togle (Flash) = False
ignor Midi Velocity 0 = false
Feedback Control = true
Feedback when received Control Data = true

Now do this things:
Press the button on the Midi controler... what will you see:
The button will light, if its pressed, and it will go off, if you release
The macro will be selected if the button is pressed, and it will stay selected if you release the midi buton
The "buttonLight" in the virtual Midi control will light if you press the real Midi Button, and it will go off, if you release the button

okay.....
letzt do more things:
Pres the virtual Button with the mouse.... what will you see:
Mouse Down... the virtual Button will light. The Real Midi button will light, the Macro will be selected
Mouse up.... nothing
Mous Down second time => the Virtual Button will go off, the real button will go off, BUT THE Macro is still selected ! (this is the bug)
Mouse up... nothing happens
Mouse Down third time ==> The Virtual Light will go ON, the Real Button light will go ON, But the Macro is swiched OFF !!!! (this is the bug)
Mouse up... nothing happens
Mouse Down fourth time ==> the Virtual Button will go off, the real button will go off, BUT THE Macro is still off! (this is the bug)

So, in this time, i have to click 4 times to swich on and of a macro by virtual Console

okay... last thing...
Click on the makro key.... what will you see:
The Makro is selected... Non of the lights will go on (not on the virtual Console, also not on the real console)

Now.. do all this things also with Scenes... here we have some differences...
1) with Mouse on the virtual Console, the Scene could not be swiched off (this is okay.... To swich of the Sene, i must select a other scene or the INIT Scene)
2) if i select a scene, direct with mouseclick on the Scene... the Scene is selected, the Light of the Virtual console is on !!! (wow... thats okay) and the light on the real console is also on.
3) if i select a scene with real console... the sene is selected, but after release of the button, the light of virtual console is of, and the light of real console is of.

so... please could you confirm this ?
If its a simple error i made in the setup, please let me know.

best regards
erich
Tschosef
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Re: Ist it a Bug? Midi Bug Report

Post by Tschosef »

Hello...

do you have some news for me to this problem? in 9 Days, i have to do the live light show for a band. hope to be able to use the console.

greez
Erich
RichterMC
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Re: Ist it a Bug? Midi Bug Report

Post by RichterMC »

Hi Erich,

I found the time to test your findings.
I really appreciate your assistance here on the forum !
Can reproduce anything, I don´t own a MIDI Controller with LED feedback, so I just watch the MIDI Output window for the feedback.

I guess we need to investigate further and think about how it has to work and what options are needed for MIDI feedback.
This can get a bit tricky, because there are many different MIDI controllers on the market.
I know MIDI is MIDI, since it is a standard, but some hardware-controller handle MIDI Input for LED feedback differently.
Some Controller are just "dumb", they don´t have there own logic to switch the LEDs in the buttons on/off, this controllers
need a MIDI feedback from Suite 2 to switch the LED´s on/off, all the logic is done in Suite 2 software.
I guees your "OHM 64" controller is in this category and I guess it´s the best way to handel LED feedback.
Other MIDI hardware controllers have a built in logic for swiching the LEDs on/off, on some controllers you can change this behaviour in the firmware.
On the APC 20 and APC 40 from AKAI you have to open Ableton LIVE software to get the hardware into "dumb" mode.
On some hardware controllers you can setup trigger buttons as latch or flash buttons.
What I want to point out here is, that we need to think of all this different options and take them into account.

Secound we need to look at the sync. of

- switch buttons / scene buttons on the pages in Suite 2 software
- LED in the console window in sofware
- LED on the hardware MIDI controller
- State on the hardware button

there seems to be some problems at the moment.

I guess we need to wait till simon is back on the forum and we´ll talk about it together.
I´m willing to help with this, like with to MIDI Input some month ago, but for some further testings I would need some hardware controllers with MIDI LED feedback.

Best Gernot
hsteppke
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Re: Ist it a Bug? Midi Bug Report

Post by hsteppke »

Hi,


i actually found out the same and i guess its all about the logic...


- On the BCF 2000 you could set the Buttons to either "Toggel on" or "Toggel off" which means they either send on/off events when you press/release them or send "on" on the first push and off on the second and so on. The Led stays on in the second case between the pushes.
(Edit + the Button -> Encoder 6 to change -> Exit) then store a preset to make it permanent

- In the console window -> right click -> Console setup -> Button Toogle (flash) to True
Then the Button in the Console window behaves like the you saw on the console.

I`am still playing around to find my optimal logic as it would be great if the LED would lid if the Button in the Software is on as well. So real Feedback.

For the time being i use the Toggel on/off for items i dont need to flash, which is only difficult if the link to the BCF gets lost .. anyway ..


Regards
Holger
RichterMC
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Re: Ist it a Bug? Midi Bug Report

Post by RichterMC »

Holger wrote:
...i guess its all about the logic...
Yes, that´s true.
There´s another layer of complexity added when it come to hardware MIDI controllers with different colored LED´s in the buttons.
In this case your have to send different values back to the device, now imagine what happend when you assign hardware buttons to multiple scene and switches in software.

I´m sure it can be done, but I guess we need to think about this in detail and come up with some ideas and solution approaches.
I think some kind of flowchart for the MIDI feedback logic would be good.

Best Gernot
Tschosef
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Re: Ist it a Bug? Midi Bug Report

Post by Tschosef »

Hello Gernot...
I´m sure it can be done, but I guess we need to think about this in detail and come up with some ideas and solution approaches.
I think some kind of flowchart for the MIDI feedback logic would be good.
yes, Midi feedback is probably a complex problem, I have to agree. Just when the Controller have different behaviors.

Maybe I can help When it comes to the flow chart.

greez
Erich
Tschosef
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Re: Ist it a Bug? Midi Bug Report

Post by Tschosef »

Hello...

are there some news in this Topic?.....
now imagine what happend when you assign hardware buttons to multiple scene and switches in software.
hm... realy not simple...

actually i would be happy, if the controllight is also on, when the controllight of the virtual controler is on :-)...

As i told: if i select a assigned Swich by mouseclick, the Lights of virtual and real midicontroler is on.
if i select the Swich by MIDI or Virtual controler... the Light is only flashing but the Scene is on :-)

I will be verry happy if i have a fast view abought selected Swiches. actually i starre on the screen to find out, witch swich is selected.


Greez
Erich
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Re: Ist it a Bug? Midi Bug Report

Post by Oclaus »

Hi there,

we have been struggling around now for some weeks now by migrating a bigger show from SL1 to SL2 and I would like to continue this thread as we are experiencing the same issue with the midi feedback on the led´s of the APC 40.

It seems that at the moment when you release a correctly assigned button at the track launch section, SL2 sends out a note off with the velocity 127 to the led.
Therefore the led goes off once the button is released (The software button remains on)

The easiest sollution for this would be that SL2 filters all note off velocities once the button is pressed and the correct velocity with the color was already sent to the contoller.
Explained in a different way:
SL2 schould filter out the note off once the button is released > or some miliseconds after it was pressed and the velocity value with the led color arrived at the controller.
What it currently does is, that once the button is pressed it sends the correct velocity value back but once you release it, Sunlite erases the correct value with the value 127 !
And guess what happens: The led goes off again :(

It would be very great and a big step forward for us when this could be released on a beta version. We would really appreciate in helping the development team in order to make the apc running correctly and therefore offer our help on this.

The APC40 could be a very powerfull controller if the track launch section would provide the feedback with the LED´s once you select a makro or scene with them.

All the very best and hoping in getting as much feedbacks as possible on this topick. > Perhaps someone found out another solution?

Oliver
(Rote Sonne Club Munich Team)
http://www.jmarquardt.com/
http://rote-sonne.com

Sunlite Suite 2 FC
Sunlite STICK
Sunlite SL512EC

APC 40
BCR 2000
simonB
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Re: Ist it a Bug? Midi Bug Report

Post by simonB »

Check the MIDI settings within the console, there are options for sending different velocity values. We will not be spending any more time changing the way the console works so it has specific compatibility with one device. This is up to the MIDI controller manufacturer.
Simon
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Tschosef
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Re: Ist it a Bug? Midi Bug Report

Post by Tschosef »

Hello Simon,
This is up to the MIDI controller manufacturer.
please read also the answer of Gernot (RichterMC) in the Top of this Thread....
.......
I guess we need to investigate further and think about how it has to work and what options are needed for MIDI feedback.
This can get a bit tricky, because there are many different MIDI controllers on the market.
......
Some Controller are just "dumb", they don´t have there own logic to switch the LEDs in the buttons on/off, this controllers
need a MIDI feedback from Suite 2 to switch the LED´s on/off, all the logic is done in Suite 2 software.
I guees your "OHM 64" controller is in this category and I guess it´s the best way to handel LED feedback.

Other MIDI hardware controllers have a built in logic for swiching the LEDs on/off, on some controllers you can change this behaviour in the firmware.
On the APC 20 and APC 40 from AKAI you have to open Ableton LIVE software to get the hardware into "dumb" mode.
On some hardware controllers you can setup trigger buttons as latch or flash buttons.

What I want to point out here is, that we need to think of all this different options and take them into account.

Secound we need to look at the sync. of

- switch buttons / scene buttons on the pages in Suite 2 software
- LED in the console window in sofware
- LED on the hardware MIDI controller
- State on the hardware button

there seems to be some problems at the moment.

I guess we need to wait till simon is back on the forum and we´ll talk about it together.
I´m willing to help with this, like with to MIDI Input some month ago, but for some further testings I would need some hardware controllers with MIDI LED feedback.

Best Gernot
greez
erich....
Tschosef
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Re: Ist it a Bug? Midi Bug Report

Post by Tschosef »

sorry.... once more... my last words...

as i see in this thread, also other users have problems with midi feedback....

hsteppke
I`am still playing around to find my optimal logic as it would be great if the LED would lid if the Button in the Software is on as well. So real Feedback.
Oclaus
It seems that at the moment when you release a correctly assigned button at the track launch section, SL2 sends out a note off with the velocity 127 to the led.
Therefore the led goes off once the button is released (The software button remains on)

you say:
This is up to the MIDI controller manufacturer.
so we have to tell LIVID, AKAI and BEHRINGER... that they have to work on their controllers, to mach the usage of suite 2 ?

sorry, i am a little bit angry abought your both answeres :-) (this thread and the other one)

greez
Erich
Oclaus
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Re: Ist it a Bug? Midi Bug Report

Post by Oclaus »

Ok, I´ve made it !

I have used a midi translator to bring the APC from the Generic mode into the Ableton Live Mode and TATAAAA!:
The Led´s do not switch off after releasing the clip launch buttons !

BUT:
The Bank selector for the encoders does not work anymore. But I think I can live with that at the moment.

Regarding the Dumping the following midi message must be send to the APC:

F0 47 00 73 60 00 04 XX 08 01 01 F7

XX must be replaced with:

40 for Generic
41 for Ableton Live Mode (This one worked for us)
42 for Alternate Ableton Live Mode

Of course several changes must be made on the midi setup in Sunlite2 in order that the LED´s provide the desired Feedback and/or color.

Regards,
Oliver
http://www.jmarquardt.com/
http://rote-sonne.com

Sunlite Suite 2 FC
Sunlite STICK
Sunlite SL512EC

APC 40
BCR 2000
gabrielefx
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Re: Ist it a Bug? Midi Bug Report

Post by gabrielefx »

the fact is that Nicolaudie should buy some midi controllers and use them natively because in this case you became a programmer.

I requested APC40 native support one year ago.

Fortunately the Akai APC40 is bundled with one Ableton Live license...but why turn on a nuclear reactor to run Suite 2 with my best selling midi controller?

Akai APC40 is the best midi controller on the planet, please buy it!

Regards
simonB
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Re: Ist it a Bug? Midi Bug Report

Post by simonB »

with no motorized faders and the fact I could buy 3 BCF 2000's for the same price..for me this is not the best controller for lighting control..but it's a cool controller, I like to use it for mixing music and triggering samples
Simon
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gabrielefx
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Re: Ist it a Bug? Midi Bug Report

Post by gabrielefx »

for motorized faders I prefer the Icon controllers.
I think that it's a lot better to switch scenes with switches

I will go for the Lemur iPad app because without led feedback on the APC-40 is impossible to understand what effect is on.
Lemur is customizable and we can add labels.

Regards
Locked